Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:27 am Post subject:
CnC 3 - Relation to TS?
I recently read a 6 page article about Tiberium Wars from PC PowerPlay ( I'm not sure if it's Australian only ) and I was quite concerned about the way Mike Verdu described and talked about TS and other things. One thing was he said all weapons and units are based off futuristic ideas / concepts of designs for units such as the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter and V-22 Offsprey for the Orca's. The Orca should be based on the TS Orca and TS's design of the Orca not aircraft that don't exist in the Tiberium Universe, also the Predator battle tank is a futuristic improvement of todays tanks, TS was set in 2030, if it was going to give GDI futuristic tanks that would have been the time, TS gave us Mechs, but CnC 3 isn't basing it's design on the TS mechs or how they may have improved, being fair CnC 3 is showing us what todays units may look like and the mech for GDI, the Juggernaut dosn't really look fantastically new or different from how we saw it in TS cutscenes.
Apart from that, TS is sort of looked down upon, I keep hearing " we are going to include the best parts from the original CnC " as if TS was not actually a part of the Tiberium Universe, and the amount of times I hear that ideas are based on either modern day units or TD is annoying becuase they should be based on TS designs, I wish that the CnC 3 devolpers could understand that, you can not simply ignore TS and take out little bits that you like. The Tiberium founa and Tiberium cliffs are all reffered to as simply looking ugly and like errors apparently, they may not look brilliant but they are still original Tiberium Universe ideas which should be fully taken into account. I also hear Mike Verdu say " We're making the game I always wanted " the thing is he is making a game he wants and it seems to me he does not like TS ideas which are original. I think he may be able to get new comers and not so devoted fans to enjoy this CnC 3 but people that care will probably not enjoy it as if it was an original Tiberium game.
And the other thing which annoys me, is how if you go to the CNC3 Forums at EA, half of the people there actually don't want any TS related stuff, and consider all those who simply "nostalgia freaks"..
Is it so much to ask for a sequel to both Tiberian Dawn and Tiberian Sun?
I think I've given up on having it more based on Tiberian Sun.. my only hope is that mods will be able to work on it.. _________________ If there is a problem on the forums, PM me. QUICK_EDIT
I agree, I lost all hope for C&C3. I aloung with quite a bunch of other people have been complaining about this (and other problems which make it less a sequal to TS), but it appears EA simply does not care. EA doesn't a sequal to TS, EA wants a TSR which can get money from as many people as possible; it attrackts new fans and tricks the old fans into buying somthing what is harly the thing they where a fan of.
By the looks of it C&C3 is being made for 8 year olds and that's also the kind of community EA thinks we are appearently. A while ago this guy EAPredator showed up and posted a stickied topic Apoc was kidnapped by Nod.
This shows just how serious they take us and who they take us for, which isn't too surprising, seeming part of the team is the same team that made RA2.
Both Apoc and Predator come up with excuses and twists about everything. At first Predator seemed a more capable community manager than Apoc because he responded more, but in fact he's actually just a salesman who doesn't know sh¡t about C&C.
When mentioned what Ryan just wrote (including the issue about tiberium), Predator said that's only visual continuity, which appearently isn't important to him (and EA).
First EA kills C&C and now EA pisses on its grave.
The only think to look out for are indeed mods. Fortunatly I heard Assassin (from CNC-Source) is having plans to also make TS Rising for C&C3 when it comes out (and maybe after that even a TS Incursion mod).
It's funny how a bunch of fans do a better job than the "professionals" at EA. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Its a simple reason.. they're driven by money.. or driven by bosses who are driven by money.
Its what relates to good profits, and what doesn't. Is it worth spending more time on a game (and thus more money) to do a few features which will please only (in their opinion) a handful of people?
Their answer is no..
Fans do it, because they want to. Because they don't care about money, they just want something which they want. _________________ If there is a problem on the forums, PM me. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 25 Aug 2004 Location: DAS BOOT IM DER OSTSEE
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:43 am Post subject:
Thank God its being based more in Continuum and TD then TS. A lot of the tiberian sun ideas were rather crazy anyways, and are probably better off gone...A pathetic cluster missile that can kill a crappy radius with no 'screen-freezes-and-flashes' effect like the Nuke in the last two games? lame. The cliche'd, overused mechs are gone except for one. No porotopotties with chainguns. It really seems GDI is the only faction that went back to TD Styles, Nod just dumped the stupid subterranian units and followed Continuum ideas Westwood, yes, WESTWOOD STUDIOS, made!
Bittah, at times i think you ARE talking out of yer arse. Made by eight year old kids? Those models are extraordinary. They arent OMG like a FPS model, but they ARE quality, i think you're just upset that EA isnt 'keeping with the story'. By the way, why the Red Alert 2 team/in general bashing? A zeppelin isnt that hard to fathom then a 10 ton toilet with chainguns on it and legs. And yes, he is a salesman, its his JOB, he went to college to sell these games to the public, not worship canon and try to get the heads to change the game cause YOU want a Titan instead of the Predator tank. Also..how is it tricking the fans into buying something? The fans surely arent that stupid to be tricked into buying something they 'dont want'. . . _________________ PPM's Reichstrollfuherer, 236th Trollenparties brigade. QUICK_EDIT
So if they had star destroyers in Star Wars, but then used borg cubes for the sequel, you wouldn't mind?
Thats pretty much what they're doing. You don't evolve, evolve, go back.. at least not without some explanation.
Okay, you don't like some of the things in TS, thats fine, doesn't mean you completely remove them.
I'd rather have a canon game anyday.
And Subterrenean units were very important, and very good strategically wise. I mean, Most of Nod's bases were underground, so it made sense to have sub-units.
I have nothing against the Continuum ideas, I just don't like how TS is ignored. _________________ If there is a problem on the forums, PM me. QUICK_EDIT
I agree in all bits of from what Morpher wrote. What realy makes me upset is why EA wrote the Tiberium War story by just ignoring previous stories of Tiberian series, they even dare to say GDI been formed by G8 nations. Why did they even bother writing the stories again? I hope, I so hope EA wont screw up the C&C3 plot, like they screw up Generals and Zero Hour, actualy, those games had not a plot at all, no surprising twists, nothing at all, just a bunch of information about the next area to conquer.. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: banshee_revora (Steam) Joined: 15 Aug 2002 Location: Brazil
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:01 pm Post subject:
Do you guys think that Nod will have only 6 vehicles and 2 aircrafts? Bear in mind that they haven't revealed all units and that there are still spots for subterranean and EMP technologies in the game. The game looks naturally incomplete because it wasn't fully revealed yet.
And EA APOC and/or EALA Predator are salesmen, they work in the marketing, therefore it's their job to convince us to buy the products from the studio they work for. Cruel world, isn't it? Last edited by Banshee on Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:10 pm; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
Tiberium Wars is a pseudo-sequel - not a sequel. Do as I have, stop bothering yourself about EA raping the story. The plethora of idiots who don't give a shit about raping TS canon far out number those who do so that's who EAs going to cater for. The people who realise if you totally ignore half of the established story (and yes it's half before some dipshit argues it's not important.) it's not an actual sequel are outnumbered by morons sadly.
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Thank God its being based more in Continuum and TD then TS. A lot of the tiberian sun ideas were rather crazy anyways, and are probably better off gone...A pathetic cluster missile that can kill a crappy radius with no 'screen-freezes-and-flashes' effect like the Nuke in the last two games? lame. The cliche'd, overused mechs are gone except for one. No porotopotties with chainguns. It really seems GDI is the only faction that went back to TD Styles, Nod just dumped the stupid subterranian units and followed Continuum ideas Westwood, yes, WESTWOOD STUDIOS, made!
So the bad ideas you've listed out of the whole game are:
Mechs (As they're 'cliché')
Cluster Missile (Because it's underpowered)
subterranean units (No justification?)
Cyborgs (I think - no idea since 'porotopotties' isn't even a word never mind a unit in TS.)
As for calling the mechs cliché... Why aren't you complaining about the Mammoth then? I mean every C&C has had a doubled barreled mammoth or mammoth clone - surely you should be sat complaining about it being overused and therefore cliché?
The cluster missile was stronger than the Ion Cannon - which I notice you didn't complain about
subterranean units weren't stupid - They fit into the storyline due to Nod having moved underground and were quite effective if used right. People who couldn't defend against them or use them were stupid perhaps - maybe that includes you?
Also you act like you know exactly what continuum would be like - how the fuck can you guess anything that was planned for Continuum? Did you work at westwood while they were coming up with ideas? Or do you think the handful of concept art shown to us was the ENTIRE game? Because for some reason I very much doubt that much of the early concepts would have been used.
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The game looks naturally incomplete because it wasn't fully revealed yet.
...The game naturally looks incomplete because it probably is incomplete. QUICK_EDIT
Ya know, I've come to accept the fact that no matter how hard EA tries they will never get CnC right. Mainly because they did not make the original games and therefore have a different view of the Command and Conquer universe than Westwood. Ya it might not be the greatest Command and Conquer experience we'll ever have, but it will still be one of the greatest gaming experiences we'll ever have. At least EA made the right choice of bringing back the classic CnC gameplay mechanics instead of keeping that BS strategy crap that Generals had. So I really could care less that this isn't gonna be the CnC we've always wanted, but I'm still gonna buy it... QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 25 Aug 2004 Location: DAS BOOT IM DER OSTSEE
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:58 pm Post subject:
Why are mechs cliche? Hm. Every futuristic thing i've seen, BF2142, Mech Warrior, TIBERIAN SUN, use MECHS, overused crap ideas that dont even work in reality, and no, I was referring to the Wolverine. the Cyborgs kick ass. _________________ PPM's Reichstrollfuherer, 236th Trollenparties brigade. QUICK_EDIT
That is not the point is it Carno, don't waste your time with a load of shit about mechs, as Muldrake said its like having star destroyers and then a borg cube in star wars. The fact is they are ignoring ideas in TS becuase they want to and they can get away with it, I don't care if the ideas in your opinion are rubbish they are still original ideas in the Tiberium Universe that if you want a successful sequel to must be recognised and taken into account.
The main annoying thing is that after reading this article Mike Verdu is reffering to TS as if he does not like it and that most of its ideas should be excluded, whether in your opinion you like them or not ideas in Tiberian Sun are an important part of the Tiberium Universe and there are parts of it you can't ignore, but EA has the money and power to get away with it and becuase of this they are proving they don't have this fantastic passion for the Tiberium Universe and more of a passion for money. My opinion is just, I am very dissapointed with the way CnC 3 is turning out, for some time I thought perhaps it had chance and I was interested, the game so far looks very good and I would be interested to play it but I wouldn't think of it as a sequel to TS at all. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
good point dcoder picture speack 1000 words ;D _________________ Link to a document to see what mods i have and/or working on or working with
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Joined: 25 Aug 2004 Location: DAS BOOT IM DER OSTSEE
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:04 am Post subject:
No...cause EA's GDI has reverted to tanks, cause of Tiberium not having pods, and the lack of a Tiberian Sun connection the fans are pissed. Why? What are we really missing here? Nobody cried over the Titan replacing the med, no reason to cry cause the opposite has happened here. Besides, NOT EVERYTHING HAS BEEN REVEALED YET! We dont know what EA has in store yet, and we're already bitching. EA's just following Westwood's trails. The Mammoth was coming back for Continuum/3, and it did here. This is our Tiberium Future that Westwood planned. EA is simply plugging the pieces of COntinuum, Tiberium Twilight, Scrapped TS crap, and giving us what we wanted. IM only crying over the lack of Cyborg units and Sub APCs so far.
Edit: JSF/RAPTOR do exist in the Tiberian universe. TD videos show Nod sporting F-22s in their air armada. QUICK_EDIT
I would love to see the source of your infinite knowledge about Continuum, Carno.. We all saw the concepts.. but I don't remember seeing a lack of Mechs. Only GDI Vehicle I remember seeing is the Mammoth Artillery, which deploys and tilts the forward part of the tank up..
Oh, and the Dropship.. but there was nothing wrong with that.
And.. I'll try and put it into context for the one thing you ever tolerate, WWII. If you had the tanks for WWII, and then they had a war following it, but decided to use the tanks of WWI or before then.. when they didn't even have tanks, I think you'd go WTF!? Start using bi-planes with machine guns.. that works too.
In Command and Conquer, Mechanised Walkers were considered an evolution of battle units for GDI. Whether you like it or not. It makes no sense to go back on that evolution. _________________ If there is a problem on the forums, PM me. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 25 Aug 2004 Location: DAS BOOT IM DER OSTSEE
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:35 pm Post subject:
Muldrake...thats a bad example, honestly. Lets compair two scenarios:
German Luftwaffe replaces Ju-87(Stuka) with some old Byplane
GDI replaces Humvee with Wolverine powered assault armour.
The Ju-87 was a fine piece of equipment, ideal, no, exceptional at its duties as a divebomber weapon, notorious for its whailing sirens, Why would the Luftwaffe replace it? They wouldnt replace it. A bi-plane is too frail to take attacks against superior RAF Spitfires and USAAC P-51 Mustang fighters, nevermind the fact that you need TWO crewmen(one for the gun, one for the piloting.), whereas you'd get TWO Stuka pilots for one generic bi-plane(GBP for short.), nevermind Hermann Goering wouldnt allow it.
Now the Hummer compaired to the Wolverine..
The humvee has space for FOUR occupants, driver, turret gunner, and passengers. Two are required(Driver and gunner), a fast vehicle, which can be outfitted with TOW missiles. The extra occupants can fire out of the windows with their weapons, or, if injured, quickly transported to a field hospital,ect. Nevermind the nice turret, which allows the vehicle to fire back at attacking units when retreating.(Ie:Tank rolls out of the woods all pissed off and such.) Now, the Humvee is NOT a perfect system, as its a wheeled vehicle its suspectable to sharp turns and tilting/flipping if it needs to make a very sharp turn. Its light, also, thanks to Yankee brilliance, the Humvee has poor armour and often ends up with scrap metal hillbilly armour being used on the sides to protect it from IEDs/RPGs Of course, if the Humvee had more armour, it'd be slower, so speed is the goal with this Vehicle.
The Wolverine on the other hand is a single-manned(4 wolvs to 2 Humvees manpower wise! ) Powered Assault Armour(Not technically a mech as its not big and ungodly and going to crush you.). unlike the Humvee, it can NOT be outfitted with extra weaponry as there is no place on the suit for any without replacing the current primary, and no way for troops to fire out of it, as there is space for one man only. The wolverine, as a single manned vehicle, and lacking space for passengers(ie:a wounded guy on the field.), it loses a point here. The wolvie is also rather light, and even easier to knock out then a Humvee, as it is SLOWER, and it has an easy target(the legs) which could be immobilized with ease with a well placed rocket, leaving the crewman to abandon his vehicle and have to deal with the rockie with his sidearm. Thus about 700 credits out the window, and a techie if the Rocket Soldier pops him.
So why not downgrade back to a wheeled IFV if it simply is superior then a powered mech for reconnasance?(Which was the Humvees role, which the wolvie filled.)
And btw, the M1 Garand rifle experianced use in World War II, The Korean Conflict, and limited use by some Americans in Viet-nam. The AK will probably end up being used for a long time after Kalaklashnov's death. Just because somethings new doesnt mean it automatically is bettar then the role it was suppoed to fill. Maybe those mechs were being field tested back in the Tiberian Sun era and GDI wasent content with preformance? We're automatically assuming GDI approved of them all and wants them as their mobile unit for the next game. The Mammoth Tank was great in TD, where was it for Tiberian Sun? 'augmented' by a prototype At-At ripoff with railguns. I'd rather have the original mammoth over the Mk2. QUICK_EDIT
although the tatin could do with another weapon possiably another cannon since its the only wepon that can be upgaded _________________ Link to a document to see what mods i have and/or working on or working with
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Joined: 25 Aug 2004 Location: DAS BOOT IM DER OSTSEE
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:01 pm Post subject:
Im done arguing. Im not in the mood to end up pissing muldrake off or morpher, or making myself looks like a dumbass. I'll bitch when TIberium Wars comes out.
It'd tip over with two 120MM cannons, thats stupid to even suggest that. a twin-cannon tank cant even function properly...i dont think any were ever built in reality...were any? _________________ PPM's Reichstrollfuherer, 236th Trollenparties brigade. QUICK_EDIT
Carno you appear to have trouble discerning reality from fiction. Your comparing something which does exist (humvee) with something which doesn't (wolverine) and coming up with conclusions as to which one would be more useful in a war, well obviously the one that exists wins hands down over the fictitous unit. THIS IS A GAME, NOT REAL LIFE. The fact that if it were actually built it might have weak knees means completly bugger all in a game. The fact that in the game they built it, then built the titan, then built a prototype 4 legged version (that in game terms costs so much to produce they can only make 1) clearly means it does work and does get results, why they would go back to using tanks makes no sense.
Also i fail to see your logic that the legs of a wolverine mech (it is a mech as in Mecha, as in limbed vehicle.) make for an easier target than the soft rubber wheels of a humvee. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 25 Aug 2004 Location: DAS BOOT IM DER OSTSEE
Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:08 am Post subject:
So reality only applies to certain aspects of C&C like when debating EA's tiberium with Westwood, but when contrasting a mecha with a humvee it doesnt. Right. QUICK_EDIT
Im done arguing. Im not in the mood to end up pissing muldrake off or morpher, or making myself looks like a dumbass. I'll bitch when TIberium Wars comes out.
It'd tip over with two 120MM cannons, thats stupid to even suggest that. a twin-cannon tank cant even function properly...i dont think any were ever built in reality...were any?
There was one Dual cannoned tank made by Russia, but only very few was ever made. I don't remember which one it was, but supposedly when Stalin seen it, he hated it with a passion...Hated it more then Zukov rode Stalin's favorite horse in victory...
Either way, yes, there was one, but a tank wouldn't flip over, the only problem was is space in the turret that prevented the use of dual cannons on tanks.
Also if they did do so, you would increase the target profile for said tank, and thus, make it more "Open" to enemy Anti Tank fire...So we can see the downside to dual cannons.
Tratos wrote:
Also i fail to see your logic that the legs of a wolverine mech (it is a mech as in Mecha, as in limbed vehicle.) make for an easier target than the soft rubber wheels of a humvee.
I see the logic.
The wheels would be harder to get a actual bead upon, as the legs of a titan are like right there, tall, and wide...Impossible to be missed with even the most inaccurate AT Weapon out there.
Plus a well placed shot from a AT Weapon thats armor peircing with a delayed explosive would easily take out the "Knee" of the Titan with little or no trouble.
These kind of things requires you to turn your attention to the "profile" of the part and/or vehicle. You increase the profile, the more it becomes vulnerable.
Its like a comparing a 747 to a F-16 in a way. F-16 would be the hummer in this case, the 747 the Titan...I think you see where I'm coming from here. The bigger the part, the easier it is to hit. Add the laser targeting feature in, well...Ouch...It becomes deadly accurate. _________________ ... QUICK_EDIT
So reality only applies to certain aspects of C&C like when debating EA's tiberium with Westwood, but when contrasting a mecha with a humvee it doesnt. Right.
Its not the reality of Tiberium.. its the canon of it from whats already been established.
So you're saying its wrong that Westwood had mechs in Tiberian Sun? That Mech Warrior, or any other game is wrong because it uses mechs rather than Tanks.
Its a game, its canon. And thats what I like. Even if the science initially was wrong, or their vision of the future was a little different to what we would think now, I'd still prefer it to make sense for that game.
I won't argue over the mech vs tank thing.. as I cannot say how incredibly fed up I am of that arguement, and I really don't care whats better, I just want continuality.
You can want what you wish, I don't mind. If you want your realism in the form of tanks rather than mechs, thats fine. I want my continuation of what I've seen in Tiberian Sun and the units which have developed there.
Von Kriplespac wrote:
Plus a well placed shot from a AT Weapon thats armor peircing with a delayed explosive would easily take out the "Knee" of the Titan with little or no trouble.
That can be applied to anything. A well placed armour piercing projectile with a delayed explosive or whatever could easily knock out anything. You could knock out a Tank track.. you could knock out a turret.. engine.. whatever.
Yes, it is more of a visible target, I will agree. But the arguement you brought up there is invalid. _________________ If there is a problem on the forums, PM me. QUICK_EDIT
Most of Carno's arguments are either invalid or unstable. He's saying that efficient military machines being replaced by even more efficient military machines is a good idea. Nice, valid, however, why use the Wolverine through the entire Second tiberian war, spanning a long time, before reverting to an old unit while tiberium is spreading and affecting the atmosphere?
Your real life comparison was this: Good plane > Bad/old plane, the correct comparison would be: Bad/old plane > Good plane > Bad/old plane. Nowhere in TS the weakness of the wolverine has been mentioned, why would they use it at all if it was bad?
Please, Carno, C&C3 skips TS and FS (do you call the current game a sequel to TS?), The staff has mentioned it, the screenies speak for themselves, no TS apart from a cheasy and obviously ripped juggernaut and perhaps a few small things not worth mentioning. Almost all units are from TD. Now, you're saying this unit change (assuming it's an actual sequel) is because - for example, of course - the hummer is better than the wolverine. C&C3 is following TD. Mike Verdu (I believe) said they were going back to their roots. The 'Mechs are stupid' discussion shouldn't even be here, because they were never there in the first place following C&C3's perspective. I still don't understand why they're throwing in random minimal TS content when it follows TD. People are crying over the Predator replacing the titan because it's a downgrade. Titan over Med is an upgrade.
Carno, why would GDI only fieldtest the mechs if it was all they had at their disposal (I don't see tanks in the TS/FS buildlist, do you?) All GDI commanders using fieldtest units through all battles? The former GDI tanks cast into oblivion, the Medium tank banished and disappearing forever, Mammoth tank getting cast away to be picked up by scrap gathering Mutants? Their former behemoth? The unit Kane wanted to get rid of so badly, he used several missions to prevent, stop and eventually (because the attacks did not stop the project) delay the construction of these Heavily armored behemoths, ready to cast hell over armored vehicles and annoying helicopters. The Mammoth Mark II finally replaced the Mammoth tank. It's a mech. Please use your brain, it doesn't make sense'. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 25 Aug 2004 Location: DAS BOOT IM DER OSTSEE
Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:37 pm Post subject:
Von, Zhukov did NOT ride 'Stalin's horse. Stalin was deathly afraid of riding a horse for the parade cause he didnt want to fall off and split his head on Red Square. Stalin was only envious 'cause Zhukov was so...liked.
Im not saying Mecha are wrong as in I think they're the unholy child of a Hitler/Tojo/Bush/Caesar orgy, Im just saying, logically, they're not worth the additon to ANY armed forces like a twin-cannon'd tank, if you want to scare the shit out of a squad of Nod conscripts, the Titan will do it with its big pounding feet, Unless Ned happens to have a shoulder-mounted rocket, then (unless he's crapped himself to death), the Titan's screwed. And they're terrrrrribly cliche.
About the continuality, Reverting doesnt mean they broke continuality. Maybe GDI decided that the tanks were better in overall forms then the Mecha? Besides, as Banshee said, there's only been SIX GDI ground vehicles released. GDI's Arsenal is much bigger, rest assured. I only hope the Disruptor makes a comeback, though.
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why would they use it at all if it was bad?
Not every unit is 'perfect' in reality or games. Take a look at the Humvees in Iraq. They get blown to shreds every day in Iraq by RPGs and IMPLIMENTED EXPLOSIVE DEVICES. They are far from good armour wise, thats why the soldiers are digging through junk heaps around Baghdad and mounting extra protection on the things. They are shit in the situation they're in.
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The Mammoth Mark II finally replaced the Mammoth tank. It's a mech. Please use your brain, it doesn't make sense'.
The Mk2 was a pathetic, useless pile of crap compaired to its MK1 bretheren. DOUBLE the price of a single Mammoth, much slower, a single-shot Railgun, tusk missiles. And a terribly obvious target that may as well be red and white or pink. And a limit of ONE?! Some basecracker unit. It needs a crapload of support since it cant sustain itself against much. Any allied unit that gets in the way of the railgun gets its ass cooked. Why not buy a group of Disruptors(1800) instead? Mk2's a useless piece of crap like the P1000 Ratte, Its old, GDI mounted those railguns onto Mammoth Tanks and made them useful, about damn time. _________________ PPM's Reichstrollfuherer, 236th Trollenparties brigade. QUICK_EDIT
Von, Zhukov did NOT ride 'Stalin's horse. Stalin was deathly afraid of riding a horse for the parade cause he didnt want to fall off and split his head on Red Square. Stalin was only envious 'cause Zhukov was so...liked.
Not what was said by military historians. _________________ ... QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Dec 2004 Location: Tiberium Research Center N27
Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:44 am Post subject:
I want mechs back! I don't want to let NOD have transformer like units!
I don't want mixing units!
I want good old atmosphere! _________________ DUNK! QUICK_EDIT
mammoth mark 2. is a prototype that has it's testing phase trough the whole second tiberian war and it was indeet the mightiest single unit on the field, nothing could mess with him in a one v.s. one, railguns are shit? eww, ts fmv shows that they are doubleshooters, they shuld be, railguns are the most advaced and mightiest weapons near plasma projectiles ripping EVERY armor terribly apart in 2 shots, ok he's slow but he's weaponed with heavy tools like no other.
you can in cnc 3 alaso equip several gdi tanks with railguns, but meh railguns are so bad and old,
fact is, gdi tanks are shit , mechs rule, it's a sci fi game - end of discussion. _________________ Hydraw Art on Facebook QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 25 Aug 2004 Location: DAS BOOT IM DER OSTSEE
Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:53 am Post subject:
Thanks Cadre, im glad im not the only one who doesnt want a 3-D Tiberian Sun clone. We look at TD and TS, Not a lot of units made the transition over, TS to TW, Same situation, why are we clamoring that EA's IGNORING Tiberian Sun if this is the SAME THING as TD with a VERY FEW units transitioning? We're being fools aboug GDI's arsenal...why? Nod is clearly the better faction anyways. _________________ PPM's Reichstrollfuherer, 236th Trollenparties brigade. QUICK_EDIT
A 3-D Tiberian Sun clone? Did you hear anyone asking for that? I don't think so, so don't act asif anyone did, it's retarded.
The difference with the units transitioned from TD to TS is that the units that aren't transitioned aren't replaced with older versions.
With TW it's like some generals decided after Tiberian Sun "hey, I think the technology we used in the previous war was much cooler, so let's trash all our new technology and base our technology on the technology from the previous war".
From TD to TS the Medium tank was upgraded to the Titan, which was used as their main battle unit throughout the enitire war. You don't need to compair with reality or anything, because this is all you need to know the Titan must've been better than the Medium tank.
Same for the Wolverine; it's not faster than the Hum-Vee, but in the C&C (heck, it doesn't even exist in reality, you can't compair it with anything, so don't!) universe it's heavilier armored than the Hum-Vee and it has stronger weapons (just take a look at the weapons the Hum-Vee and the Wolverine are carrying in the FMV's).
In TW the something that mows infantry down like grass (the Wolverine) has been replaced by scissors to cut the grass (the Pitbull).
Also, I got nothing against the Mammoth 27, it can easily co-exist next to the Mammoth Mech. So there could be a Mammoth Tank 27 and a Mammoth Mech Mark 2 or 3, seeming thease are two completely different units.
Now about Nod, they have no more Cyborgs - understandable (seeming they where probably CABAL's technology and you didn't have any Cyborgs in the Firestorm missions either), No more Banshees - understandable (seeming they're scrin technology and the scrin is likely to be the thrid side), but EA even has to consider weather they're they're going to implement subteranean units. They should be in, no questions asked, seeming they had it in the last war and it wouldn't make sence to just trash the technology.
Also the Tick Tank has been replaced by a unit simillar to TD's light tank which doesn't have advantage the Tick Tank has. If they used this unit throughout the past war, why wouldn't they just upgrade it, but instead revert back to a unit without the Tick Tank's special ability which is very simillar to the tank they used in the first war?
Same goes for the Flame Tank. Why would Nod first upgrade the Flame Tank to the Devil's Tongue in the second war and then revert back to the flame tank they used in the first war? A regular Flame Tank has absolutely no advantages over the devil's tongue. It doesn't make sence they didn't just upgrade the Devil's Tongue.
In matter of fact there isn't a single unit I've seen which has been upgraded, but instead most units have been downgraded. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Next person to use "continuality" should be shot, in the face. Yes, it is a word, but it's the WRONG word to be using. It's "CONTINUITY" damn it! _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Sorry, IcySon55, I started that off, that was my mistake.
And I agree with Bittah Commander (other than an "evolution" of the Banshee exists, in the form of the new Nod Bomber, and Scrin technology is deployed a lot in the Nod forces.)
Basically Carno, we don't want a Tiberian Sun clone, we want a game which continues on from it. We want something which picks up from where TS and FS left.
In the CNC universe, tanks for GDI evolved into Mechs. Logical or not. Whether you like it or not. It happened. For them to now go back on that makes no sense.
I want evolutions of the units seen in Tiberian Sun, just as Tiberian Sun had evolutions of the units seen in Tiberian Dawn.
Why is that so hard to understand, or ask for? _________________ If there is a problem on the forums, PM me. QUICK_EDIT
I'm just saying that so far all the units EA has made have drastic advantages over it's predecessors. With the exception of the Nod flame tank, I swear the Nod technicians that created it were sniffing disruptor crystals at the time. But it's not like EA downgraded the weaponry, just gave them a more practical from.
And I'm getting kind of sick with all of this wheres the Subterranean tech crap. We've only seen three Nod armored units and two forms of infantry, I doubt that's all they will have. Westwood didn't give you full unit lists before the game was released, and EA won't either... QUICK_EDIT
Practical form? Your comparing it to reality again CnC is NOT reality it's its own universe and in this universe mechs are better to use than tanks and are more practical, in our universe that may not apply but in this universe it does, please I wish people can understand that, our universe and the Tiberium Universe differ and one of those things is ( which I am repeating again for peoples benefit ) is that mechs are superior to tanks. If anyone replies saying " But tanks are more logical " you really shouldn't be posting becuase you don't understand the argument.
Bittah has a good point with where is subterrainean stuff. The flame tank was advanced upon by the devils tounge, and now its gone back to the flame tank which as far as I am aware it dosn't have subterrainean capabilities, so they have yet again gone back to TD. EA are just picking out things they know fans will like from TD, the Flame Tank is probably more iconic than the Devils Tounge, the Mammoth Tank is more iconic than the Mammoth Mark to or a Titan. This leaves the impression that EA is just cramming in things that they know people will recognise, if people wern't so keen on some things in Tiberian Sun then EA has to make a way for those things to work and be liked it requires them to do some effort in that department. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
This blog prettymuch confirms everything. The Juggernaut 'll be GDI's only mech, the Hover technology is scrapped and they made up some weak excuses to suit their desission to remake TD.
Quote:
GDI walkers from the Second Tiberium War (TW2) were hugely expensive to build and maintain.
This is a really weak excuse. If this was true, GDI wouldn't have used the Titan as their main battle unit throughout the entire second tiberium war. The Titan also would've been more expensive, so this statement is BS. It was also Tiberium that used to fund the war, because all materials needed to produce war machines could be extracted from it. However, the tiberium changed so drasticly now, that instead of leaching minerals, it turns them into more tiberium, so they can no longer be extracted from the tiberium and the tiberium is used as an energy source instead now.
Quote:
Hover technology proved to be another seeming dead end for GDI. The advantages of speed and all-terrain navigation were balanced by sky-high costs, poor reliability, damage incurred during “ground strikes” whenever the propulsion systems shut down unexpectedly, and a stubborn vulnerability to Ion Storm activity.
Again, a weak excuse. The Hover MLRS has an onboard computer which keeps it in ballance (prettymuch the same thing the firehawk uses). I've never noticed the Hover MLRS having poor reliability and if it really was so unreliable and expensive, it wouldn't have been used as much as it was thoughout the second tiberium war.
Yes, Hover MLRS shut down during Ion Storms, but still it was used. Ion Storms don't even occur near polar regions, so the Hover MLRS wouldn't have any disadvantages while opperating there.
It also doesn't make sence that instead of fixing this flaw, the unit is just completely disposed off.
Quote:
This team has a tremendous passion for C&C and a sensibility that runs more towards the classic tank warfare in the very first Command & Conquer game than the mech-based weaponry in Tiberian Sun. So, we are building the game that we want to play, that we believe in and have great passion for, and that we think is the best expression of C&C.
So in matter of fact they're buidling a game that they want to play, but not the sequal of Tiberian Sun the real C&C fans have been waiting for. They just made clear that they don't care about what has been established before them, they only care about what they prefer and if continuity suffers from it, so be it.
Quote:
But ultimately we do believe we are on the right track overall, making the right decisions for C&C3 that will give us all a game that is worthy of the C&C legacy. We will back up our decisions with research – and make sure that we don’t break the fiction of the Tiberium universe.
Ofcourse they believe they're on the right track, seeming C&C3 is becomming what they want (neglecting its prequals) and they don't listen to the community.
They're not backing up their decisions with research, but with excuses. It's not like they do research first and then make a decission; first they make a decissoin and they do research to make up an excuse to sute their decission. The research they do is irrellevant anyway, because it's based on reality and not on the fiction of C&C.
All thease decissions because they prefer classic tank warfare already broke the fiction of the "tiberium universe" (why are they calling it the tiberium universe anyway? There's only the C&C universe, of which they broke the fiction when they decided to make RA2).
A game that is worthy of the C&C legacy is a C&C that is part of the C&C story and thus contioniues from where its prequal stopped - instead of changing history so it suites itself. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
what happened by the ay to the polar regions? weren't the civilians brought there from the warm climatic and crushed zones? i believed in TS polar regions played the role to be safer places? but i don't see any polar regions or snow in TW, only dusty lands with splitted terrains ? are they totally stupid? _________________ Hydraw Art on Facebook QUICK_EDIT
Well, after reading that blog entry, I think I'll resign from this arguement.
At least they actually tried to explain their reasoning.. and some of those reasons aren't so completely bogus.
I don't like that its loosing its advanced TS feel.. but its less extreme now than it was before.
At least, he makes mention of GDI scientists still researching stuff, suggesting some of the previous technologies may come into play later on into game, and I quite like that.
If there was signs of the previous technology not being completely abandoned, I'm more willing to let it pass, if there is hope of it showing up later, then I'll be more content.
Also, with regards to the subterrenean technology. They have a point with the gameplay issues. In TS, having subterrenean technology was one of the hardest balancing issues WW had to work with, and it would take a lot of time and effort for it to be done right. And EA wanting this game done in mid-2007, they really won't have the time for.
But, at least the logic will potenitally be there, there is hope, as it means it'll be easier for mods to use it.
Also, the idea of Nod playing around more with their cloaking technology is very good for me. I love the idea of playing around with image ghosts and projecting images as well as hiding them. Something I've wanted to see for a while.
Also, the idea of Nod playing around with energy weapons a lot more, also pleases me.
And the idea of the Nod Laser Artillery, which.. from what I can read from it, can work with other units to produce a more devestating blast.
Basically, its clear what EA is trying to achieve. To make a large defined difference between the two sides.
GDI is low-tech, reliable, brute force.
Nod is High-tech, expensive and exotic.
I guess it makes sense, not likeable to all, but logical. It would appear they really are trying to concentrate on gameplay, and making it more varied.
It still looks interesting, its still seemingly more a TD sequel than TS sequel.. but I still think it'll be a CNC. _________________ If there is a problem on the forums, PM me. QUICK_EDIT
But GDI were never really low-tech, tbh, were they? Railguns, mechs, flying infantry, infantry with bionic arms, sonic resonance equipment...
You know, this doesn't really sound that low tech to me... _________________ Organised Rules.ini by Judeau QUICK_EDIT
GDI indeed never was low tech, but they will be now. The only excuse for this is because the units used during TS are too expensive and they're unrelyable, but if they really where unrelyable they wouldn't have been used throughout the entire second tiberium war.
Also too expensive is BS anyhow, as the material used to build them can be extracted from the tiberium and as long as there's tiberium laying around, nothing will ever be too expensive (well, this was the case with the real tiberium anyway).
I didn't expect Muldrake to buy EA's excuse this easily. It's obvious the "explanations" they gave is where made up afterwards; if they would've replaced mechs with donkeys they would've found an explanation for that aswel.
Instead of making the game suit the story, they first make a game they want and then make up excuses to justify the changes and if they can't find an excuse, they simply change the story. They're completely neglecting the foundation. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 25 Aug 2004 Location: DAS BOOT IM DER OSTSEE
Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:44 pm Post subject:
I wonder why nobody complained like this when WESTWOOD made Red Alert 2... Last edited by Clarkson on Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:07 pm; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
Not necessarily, Tiberium is only worth as much as the minerals it is able absorb. Tiberium Harvesting facilities harvest the same fields over and over and over again, meaning that through the years the Tiberium yields less and less workable materials.
Then their is the fact that GDI is using it's funds for incredibly expensive purposes. All that space based research and such can't be cheap, and then theirs all that blue zone maintenance which is a 24/7 kind of job. GDI might be having funding issues, it's not like we know how the economy works in the future... QUICK_EDIT
Ah, but you see, tiberium no longer absorbs minerals It just makes stuff into more of whatever the hell it is now. _________________ Organised Rules.ini by Judeau QUICK_EDIT
I wonder why nobody complained like this when WESTWOOD made Red Alert 2...
First of all, I did complain and second, the people that made TD, RA and TS weren't responsible for RA2; that was another part of Westwood (Westwood Pacific). It's also the same team that worked on RA2 that worked on Generals and the same team is working on C&C3 now (this was stated in one of the very first articles about C&C3). _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 25 Aug 2004 Location: DAS BOOT IM DER OSTSEE
Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:26 pm Post subject:
The fans werent very vocal with RA2 apparently, thats why it sucks and is a cartoony piece of crap(compaired to the original RA) Story wise, and balance wise..forget it..the Allies overtake the soviets in Air Power and OMG TANK RUSH, typical Soviet tactics. And giant blimps fill the air... I hope RA3 makes major retribution for RA2 _________________ PPM's Reichstrollfuherer, 236th Trollenparties brigade. QUICK_EDIT
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CnC 3 - Relation to TS?
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good point dcoder picture speack 1000 words ;D
Im not in the mood to end up pissing muldrake off or morpher, or making myself looks like a dumbass. I'll bitch when TIberium Wars comes out.
So reality only applies to certain aspects of C&C like when debating EA's tiberium with Westwood, but when contrasting a mecha with a humvee it doesnt. Right.
I hope RA3 makes major retribution for RA2
