Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:40 pm Post subject:
Introduction & Nod Design Ideas
Subject description: A personal introduction, and ideas for flavour changes and new units for Nod
Hello DTA team.
HUGE fan of your work! A while back I sent an extensive feedback document to Ramp, and after taking his reply into consideration I'd like to start sharing my ideas and input on the forums, starting with ideas for Nod units. As I have more stuff backed up, I'd like to know for the future if you'd prefer I construct my post differently, divide it into smaller posts or put more of it together in 1 post etc.
I have been hesitant to post on the forums, since doing so for other games has been...well toxic and disheartening would be a gross understatement. So while I realize you have a strong vision for your project, please keep an open mind and try not to rip me a new one. I have enormous respect for the fact that you guys do this work (would like to financially support you if my economy ever allows for it), and my suggestions come from nothing but love for C&C.
Ideas:
- I strongly believe for the sake of internal consistency AND more interesting gameplay, a firm one-or-the-other decision should be made in regards to Nod’s subterranean tech. From his original reply it seems Ramp agrees that the Stealth APC makes no sense with the existence of the Termite. If they have this tech, why wouldn’t Nod just build much cheaper sub APC’s that aren't doomed the minute a scanner picks up on them?
Ramp told me he had a feeling that making Termites able to submerge might have been a mistake, and I can sort of see why. Reason is that it not only makes the logic-issue harder to solve since it’s basically this 1 unit that’s an issue, but it also puts it into an awkward position balance-wise. With it being able to burrow into and set up in an enemy base, there is just a very natural limit to how strong it can reasonably be, but this makes it way more of a niche unit than it should be. Its concept is absolutely awesome and fits Nod SUPER well, and it still would if it didn’t submerge but just dug in to set up. That’d also make it seem like a very natural precursor to full subterranean movement like in TS and TI. So if you made it move maybe a little slowly along the ground but be quite a bit stronger, it would instead fit into Nod’s theme of blitzing an area then hunkering down with stuff like Termites, Tick Tanks, Laser Corvettes, their TS artillery, C&C3 Reckoners etc. This would then add some tactical variety to Nod, and mean their enemies can’t always count on being able to steamroll them in ground battles.
If on the other hand you want to hang on to their reliance on stealth and speed on land, I think the subterranean APC and Devil's Tongue should be buildable. Again, the current in-between just makes no sense. The sub APC’s worked for TS and in TI, I imagine they could be balanced here as well. With just HOW weak infantry naturally is in classic C&C and DTA plus only having 1 cyborg available, I hardly see it being an issue unless one deliberately allows Nod to build up a ridiculous number, while oneself building 0 base defenses. As for engineers, there’s the multi engineer option, which is an awesome mechanic. Also it’d incentivize walling key buildings. The models you made for sub-APC’s and Devil's Tongue to make them fit DTA are amazing, would love to actually see more of them than once in a blue moon.
The merit of making the Devil’s Tongue a buildable unit with tech center would also be adding variety to Nod's late game instead of just MW Tank+Artillery spam. In case you think it’d overlap too much with the role of the basic flame tank, can’t the same be said for Medium->Mammoth Tank? You tech up and pay more for a unit with essentially the same basic weaponry and role but with added strength and functionality in the form of AA for Mammoth and digging for Tongue. This could make Nod less reliant on Microwaves in general, which would very much be a good thing imo.
- As for aircraft, I still think a stealth bomber would be a great addition. The asymmetry in terms of airpower is way too much at the moment, plus a stealth bomber would just be so very iconic and fitting to Nod. All factions already have good AA (ESPECIALLY their canon enemy GDI), so I hardly see it being an issue so much as introducing at least the possibility that Nod airstrikes are a threat. The problem in my eyes right now is that everyone else’s army is sort of 3-sided (air, ground, water) while Nod has a 2-sided army. Nod’s airforce…it’s just not something I think about. When playing Nod, I don’t think about how protected my enemy is against air, and I don’t consider their AA a priority target at any time, because I can’t capitalize on it. When playing against Nod, AA barely if ever crosses my mind, it doesn’t matter. I mean even IF he gets the Apaches to kill something, great, that means he spent 5000 or more on those for that 1 kill every few minutes instead of building something useful. If I’m GDI it doesn’t even remotely faze me, like 70% of my army and my defenses have ground-to-air missiles and insane armour. He has a swarm of squishy flying anti-infantry.
Another point to consider is that every other team can efficiently harvester hunt from the air, which in my opinion is one of the biggest imbalances between factions at the moment since it impacts how free the enemy is to build as he likes without considering aerial superiority a factor.
- I am VERY much an advocate for chem missile SSM’s. If they have to be an epic unit this would be such a big upgrade in terms of uniqueness, both visually and mechanically. Would absolutely love to see a new model for them as well, since it's an epic unit. The original model is just quite, well, un-epic compared to what you guys can do.
- Maybe the most important one, I really believe an alternative should be found to the Microwave tank. I can absolutely see why it was designed the way it is mechanically, giving Nod a way to disable heavy armour so they don't get steamrolled so easily. I just feel like this solution has some inherent problems.
Thematically, it fits so much more into that wacky sci-fi tone of RA or 90’s Spiderman. Design-wise it sort of backs Nod into a corner in terms of both tactics and development possibilities. Balancing a game around a disabling mechanic like this will always create an issue in my experience, it's virtually impossible to get it just right, for any developer. Whether it’s an RPG, RTS or MOBA. Usually one or the other side is completely screwed in a fight, no middle-ground or close fights. Plus it just makes it such a hassle to introduce anything new; if it’s vulnerable to this disable, no stats are gonna save it. If it’s not, it automatically breaks the balance. Allies vs. Nod especially is just awkward, since everything revolves around whether Nod can microwave their tank destroyer.
I just think there are many other options in terms of giving Nod something cool to give them a viable lategame. The model and visual design of the MW-tank could still be used so it's not wasted. For example, I tried just making it into a laser tank and although a bit simple it also worked quite well.
- Ramp, I can see what you mean about Nod subs, I just can’t help but still feel like it’s the right thing since it just fits SO much into their tactics AND has been established as something in their 1st war arsenal. I mean there are quite many other instances in the game of mirrored or very similar units without that really ruining anything. I also disagree on the Scarab’s usefulness. I DO admit it might be anecdotal or simply a skill issue, but I really can’t come to like them in the role they’re supposed to fill. They actually very much feel like RA2’s Sea Scorpion; yea they technically can shoot non-air units, but why bother.
- I think the idea of stronger, deploy-reliant artillery should be considered, since it would be more fitting and unique to Nod instead of them having the same artillery as the Allies but typically facing an enemy with more efficient counter-artillery and a crushing aerial arsenal.
On the argument of it making defensive structures obsolete or making base assaults impossible, I honestly do believe that can be balanced out. I mean the relationship of inaccuracy and minimum range means artillery alone is just never the answer. A slow ROF and the fact that Nod’s Obelisk is just so high-end and powerful means you can’t and shouldn’t rely solely on artillery, just like now. Just for the sake of argument I tried massing artillery and walling them into stationary positions with no backup, it sucked. Artillery alone just only does so much to GDI or Soviet mega-heavy armour, which is why you need obelisks and mixed units to not just get steamrolled into the ground. Also if all you have is artillery, spread infantry can and will storm your position and you will either blow yourself up with the other artillery groups, or slowly lose ground.
Sturdier deploy-artillery just means less irritating babysitting, much more unique creative flavour, and that GDI and Soviets can’t blow up your artillery by looking at them wrong. IF you can set them up properly. A lot of units change armour class when deployed, so just make them vulnerable when mobile.
On why it’s different for Allies in my opinion: Stronger armoured options and much more powerful end game units means they’re not as screwed if their artillery is taken out. Plus their canon enemy doesn’t have a flying delete button. The mobile but vulnerable artillery feels way more natural for the Allies.
- A Black Hand trooper equipped with a stealth suit and an anti-materiel rifle. Nod tends to prefer stealth and long-range weaponry, so snipers should be one of their absolute favourite weapons. Besides, with how much GDI uses grenadiers and light hovercraft and artillery throughout the entire series, Nod ought to hand out as many AMRs as they can get their hands on.
In terms of gameplay it’d be a cool way for Nod to counter massed armies by blowing up Grenadiers in an army or sniping rocket and tesla troopers. While Nod has a wide variety of anti-infantry options they ALL share super short ranges and not much health, meaning the presence of heavy armour will almost always lead to at best a cost ineffective trade. Buggies are cheap, but killing 1 grenadier or rocket trooper then getting blown to bits still isn’t worth it. A sniper could also set up outside an enemy base to force them out of position. Nod relies heavily on being able to break up an enemy line or army, otherwise attacking GDI or Soviets in their base feels like throwing berries at a brick wall. Also, at the moment Nods is often just too vulnerable to airstrikes or AoE to really amount a good assault against a strong defensive position. An infantryman running around with a rifle, possibly stealthed, maybe a few of them spread out in an area, is just so much less clumsy and hard to punish with carpet bombing. BUT, he’s also not going to be doing anything to medium+ level armour or buildings, so he’s a compromise with a specific purpose. Plus I doubt an elite sniper with a high-powered AMR and a stealth suit would be cheap or low-tech…
It could also be super cool if a sniper could actually take out the gunner in a watchtower or Pillbox, temporarily disabling it. This would make infantry assaults a bit more viable. If that's doable with the engine ofc.
- I’d love to see Nod get their own War Factory for late-game vehicles. Whilst the idea of the Airfield is very fitting, I think it strongly restricts what kind of vehicles Nod can realistically be given and I feel like allowing them to build heavier vehicles would make it easier to design some cool late-game units using their best tech, like a heavy spray or laser tank. You’ve already introduced GDI having 2 types of facility for aircraft, so nod having 2 vehicle producers doesn’t seem too outlandish
- A heavy flame or chemspray tank would be awesome. I just like the logic of Nod capitalizing on this tech since it could easily be thickly plated due to not needing a turret. Gameplay-wise I think it would absolutely be balanced since it’d be super vulnerable to air and artillery, whereas Mammoths for example even have their own AA. It would also be much easier to flank since it’s slow and doesn’t have a turret mechanism. I think the lighter flame tanks are often nothing but a bomb in your own ranks, since they’re never going to be so fast that it compensates for their range. Better to build a heavier model and form this creeping doom so to speak. I know the typical strat is to just mass light tanks, but at a certain number/point in the game the natural limits of having a billion weak units instead of at least some stronger ones means you just feel like you’re playing as Persia, the map is Thermopylae, there’s no goat path and the Spartans have explosives. Microwave Tanks do help but I strongly believe their concept creates a lot of trouble on its own. Also, if you just invest in expensive, clunky moving fortresses with close-up spray weapons, slow-mo artillery and burrowing towers, the enemy airforce or flanking anti-armour infantry is going to have you for breakfast. Plus you're just leaving the map wide open to the enemy by being so immobile. So I think it would be possible to balance, and not ruin Nod's need to use their speed.
To try this and my earlier point about subterranean units out I tried some games with Devil's Tongue buildable, gave them heavy armour and a 950 price tag. Feels pretty good so far, numbers might need tweaking ofc.
- Trying out a stealth harvester would be cool. It always bothered me we didn’t see them until C&C3. If I were Nod, the SECOND the first field test of Ezekiel’s Wheel was a success I’d slap cloaking devices on as many harvesters as I could get away with. Just make it expensive so it creates a trade-off dilemma and encourages the enemy to set up scanning positions outside their base, making for more open-field battles for tib field control. I think the game can get a little too much about just moving out of your base directly against the enemy’s. Trying to incentivize taking and holding ground would be really good for ANY RTS in my opinion, it’s actually a thing I think lacks in a lot of them. QUICK_EDIT
The was quite the wall of text, but I'm glad to hear you're still enjoying the mod.
Qaerixx wrote:
As I have more stuff backed up, I'd like to know for the future if you'd prefer I construct my post differently, divide it into smaller posts or put more of it together in 1 post etc.
Given the length of the post I actually had to gather both time and motivation to start answering this, hence why it took over a week for me to get to it. So shorter posts would be much preferred.
Qaerixx wrote:
- I strongly believe for the sake of internal consistency AND more interesting gameplay, a firm one-or-the-other decision should be made in regards to Nod’s subterranean tech...
The idea behind the Termite is basically that it's Nod's first subterranean unit and as such the subterranean APC and Devil's tongue simply don't exist yet. It's also not too far fetched to say that since the subterranean technology is still new (or even experimental), it's still not safe/reliable enough for transporting troops underground (a single pilot is more expendable; if the Termite even has a pilot that is). So considering that DTA occurs before TS, saying that subterranean APCs and Devil's Tongues should also exist if Termites do really isn't a strong argument.
Also keep in mind that DTA lacks both buildable pavement and the EMP Cannon, which are the primary counters against subterranean units in TS. Because of how many new ground types I added in DTA and the rather limited number of transformable ground types there can be with the TS engine, buildable pavment could essentially only work on some maps and I obviously won't implement it unless it works on all maps (and I also must admit that I was never a fan of buildable pavement in the first place because it's just too tedious for fast paced matches). The EMP Cannon on the other hand can't be added because there can only be a limited amount of superweapons in TS and I already re-purposed the EMP superweapon for the Allied and Soviet nukes.
So given the lack of counters (not to mention that every single faction would need access to these counters), adding more subterranean units really isn't viable and this is also the main reason why the Termite needs to deploy before being able to fire: it gives players a better chance to respond before the Termite can start firing.
Making the Termite into a regular deployable vehicle that can't travel underground is something I'd rather consider, but I'm not convinced that it'd necessarily be better than the Termite's current implementation.
Also remember that the Microwave Tank already prevents enemies from simply steamrolling Nod in battles.
Qaerixx wrote:
- As for aircraft, I still think a stealth bomber would be a great addition...
Before we even get to talk about whether or not it'd really be balanced, I have to dismiss this simply because the TS engine doesn't support cloakable aircraft. Aircraft can be made to cloak through their veteran or elite abilities, but for some reason they just can't be cloakable from the get-go.
And while it's true that Nod's aircraft isn't as effective at harassing harvesters as other factions' aircraft, out of all factions Nod does have the most effective harvester harassment ground units. Also keep in mind that it's actually Nod's stealth and subterranean units that make up for their lack of airpower.
Qaerixx wrote:
- I am VERY much an advocate for chem missile SSM’s. If they have to be an epic unit this would be such a big upgrade in terms of uniqueness, both visually and mechanically. Would absolutely love to see a new model for them as well, since it's an epic unit. The original model is just quite, well, un-epic compared to what you guys can do...
I could make the current SSM spawn gas clouds in addition to its explosions, but I'm not sure how appealing that'll look. As for the unit's appearance: it's supposed to be a somewhat fast but hard-hitting epic unit and if we'd replace it with something bulkier looking in order to make it appear "more epic", I'd also have to make it slower. I personally think the SSM Launcher's current appearance is perfectly fitting for its role in enhanced mode.
Qaerixx wrote:
- Maybe the most important one, I really believe an alternative should be found to the Microwave tank...
The Microwave Tank actually went through several incarnations. Initially it used to gradually deal damage for some time after hitting its target once, later an it was made to also stun the enemy unit and when this combination was found to be a bit overpowered (you'd be able to spam almost nothing but microwave tanks), the stun duration was increased and the damage was removed.
That said, depending on your play style you really don't have to rely on the Microwave Tank at all and I also don't think you're necessarily screwed when it's used against you because they're useless against infantry. If anything I think Microwave Tanks stimulate people to build more diverse armies: if they're used against you, you need to make sure you bring infantry and long-range units to counter them, while those using Microwave Tanks need to consider what units will be countering them and be prepared to counter those in return.
Qaerixx wrote:
- I think the idea of stronger, deploy-reliant artillery should be considered, since it would be more fitting and unique to Nod instead of them having the same artillery as the Allies but typically facing an enemy with more efficient counter-artillery and a crushing aerial arsenal...
In fast paced matches slow deploying units are usually more of an annoyance than anything, not to mention that you really don't need to babysit mobile artillery units anymore anyhow; there used to be a bug where your units would endlessly chase after any enemy unit that moved in and out of its firing range, but this was already fixed in version 1.1486 over 2 years ago.
Qaerixx wrote:
- A Black Hand trooper equipped with a stealth suit and an anti-materiel rifle...
That sounds like it'd be overpowered for a mass-producible infantry, not to mention that it'd render the already fragile enemy infantry entirely useless. Also keep in mind that Nod's most powerful anti-infantry option isn't the flamethrower or buggy, but it's the artillery which obviously isn't short range at all.
Additionally I don't think that man-carried stealth technology even makes sense (especially for that era), even if Renegade had it (and since Renegade is full of silliness in the first place, I don't really take it as canon).
Qaerixx wrote:
- I’d love to see Nod get their own War Factory for late-game vehicles...
Qaerixx wrote:
- A heavy flame or chemspray tank would be awesome...
Nod already has more vehicles than any other faction in DTA, so I really don't think it's a good idea to give them even more (this is of course unless Nod would be underpowered compared to other factions otherwise, which isn't the case). Having Nod only receive vehicles form an airstrip also puts them apart from all other factions and since we aim to make the factions as diverse as possible, it's not a good idea to change one of the few things that make a faction unique.
Qaerixx wrote:
- Trying out a stealth harvester would be cool. It always bothered me we didn’t see them until C&C3. If I were Nod, the SECOND the first field test of Ezekiel’s Wheel was a success I’d slap cloaking devices on as many harvesters as I could get away with...
While I wouldn't hate the idea, you do need to keep in mind that DTA essentially still needs to exist in between TD and TS somehow and it wouldn't make sense for cloaked harvesters to exist in before TS and not anymore during it (especially given how advantageous that would be for Nod).
Not to mention that if the technology can simply be slapped onto a regular harvester which looks no different, why couldn't it also be slapped on all other Nod vehicles as well? From the fact that only a single Nod unit in both TD and TS has this technology I'd deduce that it can't just be placed on any kind of vehicle, but it's necessary for the unit to be constructed in a way that just doesn't work for heavier vehicles such as tanks and harvesters, while bikes and buggies are just too small to fit the technology without having to become too bulky to remain as fast as they are (let alone fitting it on an infantry). _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Shorter posts, got it, was just worried about flooding the forum too much. Sorry that the post was a bit heavy but I wanted to provide adequate arguments and descriptions.
I can see what you mean about the subterranean units. I still don't think the Devil's Tongue would create quite the same issues as an APC, and it also wouldn't be carrying more than a pilot. It WOULD however make flame weapons more useful.
I just think having 1 single sub unit feels a bit odd, even if it is sort of an early concept. It just doesn't feel as advanced as for example stealth, and thus it's a little weirder that it is so limited.
As for just changing the Termite, I realize that the MW Tank is an anti-steamroll meassure, but apart from believing that carries problems of its own, I also think the Termite still has the issue of usually being too niche since its stats have to be balanced around its digging ability. Its immobility then means it's often way too easy to just blow up in no time.
Well, if that's all that can be done for the aircraft, just make it an aquirable ability then. I get that Nod has good anti-harvesting vehicles, and I agree.
But, I still think my argument stands that having such a 2-dimensional army still has a massive impact on balance, the enemy's ability to just straight up ignore this entire strategic aspect of the game when facing Nod is still a big issue.
It just feels very limited to not be able to capitalize on lackluster AA.
I guess a small buff to the Apache could work, I just think from a thematic/artistic point of view a bomber with potential stealth would be so much more interesting.
Would it be necessary to make the SSM that bulky in order to shine its graphics up a bit? It doesn't need to look super heavy, just a little more on par with other epic units.
The gas clouds would also help with the feel of the unit and make it feel more "Nod" as well. Just make the explosion green too, looks fine on the Sea Shadow.
Ramp told me he suggested this as well a while back. I know you're the leader Bittah, just saying I think it's worth giving it a shot.
As for the MW tank, I guess I just rarely if ever consider infantry a serious option, they're just SO fragile. And slow. The standard MW+Arty combo already covers that.
Also, as you seem to be (rightfully) concerned with continuation, why does Nod have such a sophisticated and effective anti-armour solution now but later they're right back to only being able to sneak around GDI until C&C3's MUCH more clumsy self-EMP'ing Buggy solution?
Btw why'd you call it a Microwave Tank and not just an EMP tank?
Were it any other unit, I'd agree, but artillery tends to stay in one place for a good while anyways. My problem still is that they get deleted from air or counter-artillery way too easily and Nod is so utterly reliant on them.
I still have a lot of issues with artillery chasing, or just...going off on adventures for seemingly no reason whatsoever. I sometimes have artillery who are within range and firing, then suddenly they decide to move almost a screen's length away.
The sniper could be made to have a build limit. ANd yea he would kind of make infantry a bad option, but like I said you'd have then invested a lot of money into suppressing enemy infantry, he'd be useless against armour. He really is most meant to harass.
Yea okay on the stealth suit you may be right, good point. I just think it is SO friggin weird that with Nod's love of range, stealth and harassing/guerilla tactics, that in NO C&C game do they have a sniper. I'd think the Black Hand LOVED snipers.
The chemspray tank was meant as a possible balancing factor to replace the MW Tank with tbh. Otherwise yea it might be a bit much, I just still think it's a cool and really logical idea, would love to see it tried out (if not here the TI, I know Ramp and I'm pretty sure LKO work on that too?).
As for stealth harvesters, them not being in TS never made any sense to me to begin with. I mean even IF stealthing a vehicle isn't that easy (although I'd wager it's more a matter of cost effectiveness and prioritization since it's such an advanced technology), harvesters would imo be a priority. Just like the APC in DTA since it makes a big difference.
Stealthing the base one would of course be rediculously OP, but I still think a lategame stand-alone version might make the game more interesting. If you think it doesn't make sense for a heavy vehicle, make it lighter. More fragile, less carrying capacity maybe, but stealthed. It's supposed to be a trade-off in the first place anyways.
Also, getting too bogged down with what was and wasn't in TS would too severely limit your creative freedom imo, you already have stuff that sort of defies that logic a bit. I mean I thnik Nod would be silly for just abandoning the Termite, MW Tank, handheld laser weapons, a this powerful SSM launcher etc. QUICK_EDIT
I actually don't think there'd really be a reason for the Termite to still exist when the Devil's Tongue becomes available, considering that the Termite's need to deploy before firing and also its immobility while deployed are obvious downsides that the Devil's Tongue doesn't have.
And whether or not it feels more advanced that stealth doesn't matter because it's just a fact that stealth technology was already introduced to the C&C universe in Red Alert: Aftermath (in the form of the Phase Tank, which was scrapped from DTA for balance reasons), while subterranean units only made their first appearance in Tiberian Sun, 7 decades later.
Adding a stealth bomber which needs to become veteran before it's actually able to cloak would be silly, although we could consider making the Apache cloak when it becomes veteran or elite.
And while you might be able to skimp out on AA while fighting against Nod, unlike other factions it gives you subterranean and stealth units to worry about, which for a large part fill the roles that aircraft would for other factions. In other words, playing against Nod doesn't give you less to worry about at all: it gives you different things to worry about.
I assumed you wanted a bulkier look for the SSM to make it look "more epic", but if not I'm not sure what you think it's lacking exactly.
I can't just make the explosions green though, considering that the SSM uses large impact explosions that unlike the Sea Shadow's much smaller napalm explosions probably wouldn't look good if they were simply recolored to green.
As I explained, the Microwave Tank didn't stun units in DTA when it was first introduced as it was based on the Microwave Tank that was originally cut from Tiberian Dawn. While the unit's function gradually changed since it was introduced, its original name stuck.
Bikes can defend the Artillery from aircraft, while the Soviet's V2s can either be out-ranged by the SSM or be taken out by Apaches.
For as far as I know the Artillery chase after enemies when you put it in area guard mode (by pressing G), which doubles its guard range.
I really don't think introducing snipers would benefit gameplay at all, no matter how cool they might seem. The closest to a snipers DTA has are the commando, Tanya and Volkov, for which Nod already has the Cyborg Prototype as their counterpart.
Considering that the Microwave Tank is actually somewhat iconic since its weapon was shown in the TD credits video, we'd probably rather change its functionality than to scrap/replace it altogether.
Rampastring used to do the AI for TI, but Dutchygamer picked that role back up and IIRC LKO doesn't work on TI anymore either. We do still occasionally assist TI with engine patches and debugging though.
Wouldn't a low storage capacity stealth harvester defeat the whole purpose of it being able to cloak in the first place? I'd at least expect for the point of stealth to be that the harvesters would be able to safely harvest farther away from the base, which won't be practical at all with a lower storage capacity.
We can still be creative within the boundaries the C&C universe set for us. Technologies that might have disappeared in TS are primarily things that aren't mass-produced in DTA in the first place (such as the Cyborg's laser and the SSM Missiles, which actually get severely out-ranged by the TS ballistic artillery projectiles) and like I mentioned above, the Termite's downsides would have made it redundant next to the Devil's Tongue (and it was actually meant to be less effective than the Devil's Tongue in the first place). You might have a point about the Microwave Tank as an EMP Tank here though. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
I guess I just have the same view of the mission packs for RA as you do for Renegade; It's full of stuff that makes little to no sense if it were to be considered canon, especially since they seem to have been an afterthought without much regard for continuity from WW's side.
As for gameplay, the Devil's weapons are so specialized let alone short ranged that I very much disagree it would make the Termite obsolete, the Termite can fill a number of roles especially defensively as well where the DT would suck. Imo flame weapons used on their own tend to be quite ineffective.
I just meant adding a Nod bomber craft that gets stealth when veteran. You do have a point about worrying about other stuff versus Nod and that does of course factor in. I just still think being able to entirely ignore 1/3 major "categories" of units in the game has significant impact on your enemies economic freedom.
Most AA is bad or useless in ground battles whereas you can use the same units to defeat most of Nod's arsenal, it's more a matter of how you manage them. So my concern is more from an economic standpoint so to speak, it lets your enemy invest more freely imo.
But, if you hate the idea of a Nod bomber, stealthed veteran Apaches would be an alternative. I just think it's very rare to get vets or elites against a challenging enemy.
Maybe consider giving Apaches a new weapon when vet or elite? Still a machinegun ofc, but a "heavier" one that does a bit more damage to armour, the explanation being that it shoots AP bullets?
As for the SSM, I don't have a specific vision in mind. All I know is that you guys have done such an amazing job with the other epic units and the new ships, that I have no doubt you could make a significant improvement. I mean if it got a tiny bit bigger to add more detail I don't think that would matter too much. I didn't mean to ask for like Behemoth size or something like that, that wouldn't really fit it like you said. I apologize for being unclear about it.
I disagree that bikes are a good AA measure for several reasons which tie into a problem with C&C in general but that's another discussion entirely.
My experience is just that fast aircraft with huge bursts of damage like Warthogs and MIG's don't give a darn about bikes or rocket troopers.
Nod is the only faction without a commando, so don't you think it could be balanced giving them one, or a sniper instead? A Black Hand commando would also be quite cool. The sniper thing just bothers me in general but I do get why you're concerned about its balance if introduced to DTA.
Well, I do think scrapping the MW Tank model would be a shame, it looks really good. Off the top of my head you could make it into a laser tank or something else utilizing Nod's more advanced weaponry?
The laser could be special made to puncture/melt through armour, but actually not harm living tissue all that much. In fact I think lasers like that do exist? Ones that are somehow made so they only cut matter with a certain makeup. Sorry I'm not exactly a physicist, but I remember reading about lasers designed to cut tumors but leave other tissue intact, something about the tumors having a different density. If nothing else, this IS sci-fi, I know for a fact I've seen this concept in comics.
I mean this wouldn't have the same all-or-nothing mechanic but would still allow Nod to handle stuff like Mammoths. This would also not create the same continuation issue, because yes, I do really think the MW Tank honestly doesn't make sense in the grand scheme of things.
EMP weapons in all other C&C games are either very limited, like requiring a superweapon-grade structure way too large and bulky for a vehicle plus having a long CD, and/or being mission-only in TS. Or, having MAJOR drawbacks and cooldown periods in C&C3.
Either faction having a THIS well-developed, efficient EMP weapon doesn't make sense imo.
It also generally always bugged me that Nod never tried to develop any strong vehicles utilizing some of their best weapons.
The low storage thing was just a suggestion for a way to offset its advantages. Like it's more expensive but takes maybe 10-20% less in a load, so it does need to stay alive for a while to pay off. But if the enemy ignores it entirely, yea it can still give sort of a safety in your economy. Or just make it really expensive and maybe more fragile.
My whole point is just that I think the concept could work with this philosophy og making a trade-off alternative to regular harvesters, giving players incentive to use scanning equipment more actively, and hopefully sparking more open battles.
Btw, I never did thank you for taking your time to reply to me. So thank you! I know it was a mouthful and I promise I'll cut it up into way smaller pieces for new posts.
I hope I'm not just bugging you with this, I love the mod immensely and I just wanna contribute and have a fun exchange of ideas. I tremendously appreciate you taking your time to give detailed and thoughtful answers. QUICK_EDIT
It just feels very limited to not be able to capitalize on lackluster AA.
Just quickly commenting on this point, I don't have the time to cover the whole post yet.
You can capitalize on lackluster AA with Apaches, although your targets are a bit more limited than with other factions. In PvP matches they're often used for destroying artillery / V2s from opponents that didn't consider building AA necessary. It's also possible against the AI, once I destroyed so many mostly V2s with Apaches (carefully avoiding enemy rocket infantry and Mammoth tanks) that I got 3 of them elite.
Even if the enemy had no artillery but only tanks, you can still harass them and the damage from even a single Apache adds up to significant amounts over time so that your enemy is forced to spend some resources on AA. (Unless they're GDI, who effectively get it for free)
If you can build enough of them quickly and really surprise your opponent, you can also do it like the Hard AI and take out a couple of refineries or power plants with a swarm of Apaches. Although the kind of situations where you have the economy for that are very rare. _________________ CnCNet Client | CnCNet TS patches | More Quality-of-Life Improvements for RA Remastered
Sorry for the delayed reply, was waiting to see if Bittah would respond to my previous post.
Yes, Apaches are moderately efficient at killing enemy artillery if they completely neglected AA. But that is such an EXTREMELY specific niche.
As for harassing enemy armour, by the time an Apache has made any sort of dent in a medium+ tank your opponent will have had ages to win a battle or destroy your base or whatever is relevant in the given situation. Plus the ressources spent are going to be missing elsewhere. 1000$ can be quite a lot of money in a pinch in my experience.
Imo Apaches are too expensive and their weapon too limited in utility to be worth considering, let alone completely and entirely useless against their canon enemy GDI.
The bomber suggestion was meant as a more interesting and possibly more easily balanced way of giving Nod the option to actually seriously threaten bad AA instead of just doing negligible harassment over such a long period that your opponent even has time to build new AA as a response. You can't do that against a Warthog or a group of MiGs before they do some serious damage. The biggest concern is the ability to damage harvesters and buildings with rapid air raids.
I do however think buffing the Apache might be hard to balance since it's such a low-tech unit and Nod's only airforce, so putting too much power into it might easily tip things the wrong way. Which is why I thought giving them a bomber that maybe dropped tib bombs and could gain stealth capabilities would both be more interesting design-wise, and make for better balance.
So yea, I really like the idea of a Nod bomber and that's my main focus here. If you guys hate that idea I think something should be done to the Apache but that's a balance discussion for a later thread. QUICK_EDIT
The Termite is actually meant to be worse for attacking than the Devil's Tongue in any case (since TD lacks the counters against subterranean units that TS does have) and if I somehow did find and excuse to make the Devil's Tongue buildable, I'd most likely scrap the Termite.
Apaches already get a more powerful Gatling guns when they become elite and even without becoming elite they're quite effective against any unit that doesn't have heavy armor.
I'm not certain whether it's a good idea to make Apaches cloak when they become elite yet because of how heat-seeking missiles work with the TS engine: they disappear instantly when they lose the target.
I'm not sure if we'll do anything with the SSM since most of us feel like it's fine the way it is, but since LKO is currently our only active unit graphics artist I'll leave the decision of whether it's worth the effort or not up to him.
Nod's commando is really the Cyborg Prototype and balance-wise it really doesn't feel like Nod needs another (especially since both of them could them be delivered to an enemy base with a Stealth APC).
If we change the Microwave Tank we have to make sure to not drastically change the game balance, so we have to be careful about how we change it and whether the change is really worth it.
If I'd change it I'd prefer for it to be a bit more true to its name though and giving it a weapon that somehow cuts metal but not flesh would be the opposite of what the name implies. A weapon that does the exact opposite and thus only kill the crew of a tank while leaving the unit itself intact would be more fitting, but unfortunately impossible with the engine.
Part of the reason of why the old weapon was changed is that it dealt damage gradually after hitting its shot, during which the enemy unit was still able to fire back and possibly destroy the Microwave Tank even though the enemy unit could essentially be already dead. So a possible improvement could be to make the Microwave Tank deal more damage than it used to, but make it deal that damage for a much shorter period and to stun the enemy unit during that time only. This way it couldn't entirely prevent enemy units from firing altogether anymore, but it would be able to slow down their rate of fire or stun them for just long enough to get a head start and retreat.
Stealth harvesters still have the problem that they don't exist in TS and their technology could only have improved if they did exist beforehand, so their presence in DTA really wouldn't make sense.
Sorry for the late reply by the way; your post didn't show up as new so I missed it. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
I do get your concerns about having subterranean units in DTA. I'd still argue that scrapping it altogether would actually be better then, I still think the Termite is in an awkward position of both logic and balance.
Well, in his original response to me Ramp told me he had suggested the tiberian SSM missiles himself, so I really hope you will give it a shot. I have no doubt LKO could make it look good if he can find the time.
As for the actual SSM unit model, the speed still wouldn't feel weird if it got like 10-20% bigger but still had sort of a "light" but simply more detailed look to it. Again, I wouldn't want it to become Behemoth-bulky, just stand out more to fit its status.
The Cyborg Prototype being infantry does indeed put it in sort of a unique position. On the other hand, it and a conventional commando have such vastly different weapons and roles that it might not really create a problem? Plus if you're trying to sneak in 2 expensive commandos, you've really put all your eggs in one somewhat fragile basket, if you're caught the punishment to your army strength and economy would be quite severe.
It just bothers me that Nod is actually the only faction that doesn't have a more sneaky covert-ops/surprise attack designed commando unit, despite maybe being the faction it would fit best thematically. That's also why I thought a Black Hand sniper might be a good idea, it'd sort of give a representation of this side of Nod whilst not actually overlapping with the Cyborg for an up-close infiltration role.
As for the MW Tank, a units NAME is probably just about the last thing that should stand in the way of a beneficial change. Why is the name so important? I thought the important part was not having to make a new model from scratch since that is naturally a lot of work?
Also, imo you have actually already crossed what you say you're concerned about; the current MW Tank only affects machinery, as opposed to cooking the crew. I can honestly say that its name and design greatly confused me when I first played the mod. Really, it's an EMP-beam tank, and as previously stated, that in itself creates way more continuation issues in relation to every other title in the franchise, EMP is firmly established as having major trade-offs.
If given this metal slicing laser it could just be re-named something like a Tank Hunter or Beam Tank. Or even, with the way the turret sits far back and the chasis has these 2 portrutions as opposed to just being square, you could call it a Scorpion Tank or a Scorpion's Sting or something.
Please, don't let something like naming stand in the way of game design, especially not when the unit has already moved so far away from its original description.
And I do absolutely think it would very much be worth it. The MW Tank thematically doesn't fit its designated faction at all, and generally doesn't feel at home in the universe or adhere to any established rules, and you have otherwise done a remarkable job at being very loyal to and logically consistent with the franchise. It is sort of an awkward compromise from an original concept that was simply impossible due to engine limitations.
Once the numbers of the "laser tank" were tweaked correctly, it would provide a much smoother and more balanced gameplay, instead of the all-or-nothing design it currently has. To boot, it honestly doesn't feel very satisfying to have a factions main lategame high-tech tank be a support unit for lower tier units.
As for the stealth harvesters, well first of all their abscence from TS always bothered me as well simply due to how strategically logical a move it would be. And honestly, while I do agree that taking consistency into consideration is a very good thing, strictly limiting yourself to aligning with TS is way too limiting.
I mean vanilla TS is quite old and just had certain limitations when it was developed, you guys and the TI crew have already pushed the engine and what it allows for creatively way beyond what WW had the time to do back in the day. Nod especially...kinda sucked in a lot of ways in vanilla TS, I always felt that for how top-notch the atmosphere is and how much more sci-fi the universe felt at this point, both factions arsenals and Nod's in particular, were just not expanded enough upon, and as I understand it some of that had to do with EA doing their EA thing and pushing the release.
So, with how illogical it seems to me and with no obvious explanation against it being possible, I firmly believe stealth harvesters should be an exception, and I think they would make the gameplay more interesting if designed with the right trade-off.
Just glad you saw this recent one then, was afraid I had pissed you off somehow. QUICK_EDIT
The Microwave Tank's name is important because it's well known among C&C fans and the unit's design is recognizably based on the official concept art of the Microwave Tank.
Also, giving Nod a laser-based tank would again present the exact same problem as you brought up concerning an EMP-based tank: Nod doesn't have this technology in neither TD or TS and thus would go against continuity (and would thus defeat the point of replacing the unit's weapon in the first place).
I'm also against implementing a unit that simply makes Nod's Light Tank redundant in late-game as this would go against Nod's character.
A stealth harvester certainly wasn't left out of TS because of difficulty or limitations, considering that this can be achieved via a single key. I find it more likely that Westwood had a certain idea of how stealth technology was supposed to work and the technology wouldn't be compatible with harvesters. If any unit could equip stealth technology, every Nod unit would've had it and that would've been silly. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Stealth Harvester:
if anything, i would add this as an additional late-tech unit, which the player has to build manually.
Then this harv could get a lot less storage space to balance the cloaking.
SSM:
I wouldn't mind creating a new SHP unit. However, the SSM is an original asset from TD and i would not like to see an original asset replaced by a new custom made one. Losing original art like that takes away the classic look/feel of the game, which still tries to be very close to original TD/RA1.
If anything i would change the SSM's missile explosion to Napalm to be more similar to the TD version. Something like the elite V2 Napalm warhead.
However, with the Behemoth already included, it could be a bit too much Napalm based weapons in the game.
Right now what bothers me most is simply the quite unfitting explosion anim (unrealistic, flat, 2d flake shaped, few colors, no smoke), which doesn't look TD'ish at all. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
The Microwave Tank's name is important because it's well known among C&C fans
Is it, really? I at least wouldn't know about the unit if it wasn't in DTA.
Bittah Commander wrote:
Also, giving Nod a laser-based tank would again present the exact same problem as you brought up concerning an EMP-based tank: Nod doesn't have this technology in neither TD or TS and thus would go against continuity (and would thus defeat the point of replacing the unit's weapon in the first place).
Surely they have the technology for a laser gun since they're able to fit one in such a size that a cyborg can carry it. That's not much different from putting one into a tank.
That doesn't mean that I'd think a heavy laser tank is a good idea though, it shouldn't make the light tank obsolete or make Nod lategame too similar to the existing factions. Maybe it'd fit in as a semi-high-range, high-damage but weak armor kind of vehicle like the Tesla tank or Chrono tank.
I personally like the EMP in that it's something unique in the game. It does synergize poorly with the shorter-range Nod units like bikes and flame tanks though.
Quote:
The Cyborg Prototype being infantry does indeed put it in sort of a unique position. On the other hand, it and a conventional commando have such vastly different weapons and roles that it might not really create a problem? Plus if you're trying to sneak in 2 expensive commandos, you've really put all your eggs in one somewhat fragile basket, if you're caught the punishment to your army strength and economy would be quite severe.
You'd pretty much automatically win the game if you got the APC to the enemy base though. The Cyborg would kill defenses / lighter units that you usually counter commando-APCs with, and the commando would proceed to C4 your whole base. It'd be very hard to stop.
The effect to your economy also wouldn't be that large, a stealth APC doesn't cost a lot and if you see that the enemy has too many defenses, you can just use the Cyborg normally and keep the APC + Commando combination around to put pressure on the enemy. _________________ CnCNet Client | CnCNet TS patches | More Quality-of-Life Improvements for RA Remastered
I agree with Ramp on the name, I have played and re-played every single C&C title for many years and I had to look the MW Tank up. And unless there's some mission pack specific unit I missed, it's from Generals?
It's just very out of place in DTA imo, especially in Nod's roster.
And Ramp said exactly what I was going to in regards to the idea of a laser tank, you've already introduced portable laser weapons. In contrast, even primitive EMP didn't even exist in the 1st war, and in TS it was a SUPERweapon with a long CD and extreme power requirements. Even the obelisk wasn't as demanding.
As for your concerns of it making the light tank obsolete, would it truly? It would be expensive, require better tech, and it could be designed such that it would be best if mixed with the light tanks.
How about a high damage but low RoF? Then just spamming laser tanks wouldn't be very reliable, but if mixed in with the "1000 papercuts" of a group og light tanks would give more control on the battlefield and a much more even flow of damage.
I mean what about Mammoths? Do they make the smaller alternatives entirely obsolete? I think the Allies is actually the only faction who really has a problem in this regard if anything. I have no doubt it would be easier to get the numbers right for this design, than balancing the game around a long disable. Plus it still just feels weird that Nod's main lategame tank is a supportive unit.
Furthermore, I agree 100% with Ramp that the MW Tank really synergizes pooly with several of Nod's main units. It especially makes the flame tank an even worse option, which is actually a huge design problem. I mean the flame tank is so much more iconic to Nod and Nod's lategame tank almost counter-acts the flame tank.
As for the Commando combo, yea you'e probably right. I just still can't shake the wish to implement some sort of sneaky lategame infantry, it really feels wrong that Nod of all is the 1 faction that doesn't have it.
@LKO yea that was the exact idea with the stealth harvester Making the baseline harvester stealth would be complete madness, the whole idea is meant to be a lategame trade-off strategic decision. It's an investment, you will either secure your economy or make a rally bad, big investment depending on how well your opponent can make a counter-play and control the map. That's why it seems a logical balancing factor to me to make it more fragile, so that if it does get discovered it'll get more easily punished, making the stealth it's main strength. Plus it makes a lot of sense imo that they would have to sacrifice armour to fit the stealth tech onto it.
The two big ideas behind it is both lore-logic so to speak, I mean why on earth wouldn't Nod do this. And to encourge more open battles for control of terrain, instead of just taking turns attacking each other's bases.
And I disagree with the assesment that this would imply Nod should stealth all their vehicles. This technology is super advanced and expensive, even if they COULD produce enough of this technology to stealth EVERYTHING, imagine the astronomial costs. Stealth is also kind of useless on something like a main battle tank, why would you stealth a unit that is going to make up your frontline anyways.
It's just that a harvester wants to avoid combat entirely and go about its business, and it's really good for the commander if it can do so. So stealthing a harvester would be worth it.
I also still don't see how they should fit the tech onto something like a bike or buggy, especially without making it heavier, defeating its purpose.
SSM: Napalm would be cool too, Nod do have a thing for fire. I just like the idea of a tiberium missile since it would set it much more apart as an epic unit and be even more iconic to Nod specifically. And it wouldn't conflict with the Behemoth which I think is good as it is.
As for the unit model, just make the change specific to Enhanced mode. Your other designs fit greatly into the feel and look of the game, they're just more impressive to look at. Which is why I'm sure you could make the SSM visually fit its role as an epic unit better without making it feel out of place. QUICK_EDIT
i think the Stealth Black Hand and Laser Chaingunner from Renegade X would make interesting additions to Nod's infantry options. The design of Light Tank in Renegade you can copy to obtain an earlier tick tank, its quirk would be resistance to air attacks since its so flat unless deployed. QUICK_EDIT
@an Meow I suggested changing the cyborg prototype's weapon to act more like Renegade's chaingun both for cool-factor and consistency with the rest of the series, since he already holds it like a chaingun.
However, Rampastring told me that with the TS engine, they simply wouldn't be able to make it look right.
As for the Renegade LT, I don't think its flat design lends itself to the turret conversion mechanic of a Tick Tank, it would simply look weird.
Plus you need a tank of a certain build to be able to logically move the turret on top of the tank's rear. With the design of the Renegade tank it would be like attaching two pieces of paper in a T-pattern, not very tank-like.
In a way I'd love to see the Renegade design used as an advanced light tank, but that raises the issue of it straight up replacing the standard light tank without really having any distinct features of its own, which wouldn't translate into very interesting gameplay. QUICK_EDIT
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Introduction & Nod Design Ideas
Making the baseline harvester stealth would be complete madness, the whole idea is meant to be a lategame trade-off strategic decision. It's an investment, you will either secure your economy or make a rally bad, big investment depending on how well your opponent can make a counter-play and control the map. That's why it seems a logical balancing factor to me to make it more fragile, so that if it does get discovered it'll get more easily punished, making the stealth it's main strength. Plus it makes a lot of sense imo that they would have to sacrifice armour to fit the stealth tech onto it.
