Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:46 am Post subject:
Welcome to Tiberian Dawn: Renegade
Subject description: Introduction to the Mod
Hello and Welcome. I am sure most of you here at the forums have seen the public mod announcement, and now, here we are!
Big shout out to Banshee, our esteemed webmaster.
TIBERIAN DAWN: RENEGADE
Tiberian Dawn: Renegade is a modification that merges the first person shooter called Command and Conquer Renegade with the Real Time Strategy collectively referred to as Tiberian Dawn, both of which take place at roughly the same time period in the same universe.
Tiberian Dawn: Renegade seeks to merge the two together to create a perspective that is somewhat unique. This is no mere graphical overhaul, this is a complete reinterpretation of Command and Conquer 95.
Please stay tuned for more announcements, and please feel free to leave any feedback. _________________ You come for the modding but you stay for the Crap Forum. QUICK_EDIT
Congrats on the hosting, still good to see your doing progress on this _________________
Silly taco fumbling unicorns nocturnally launch basketballs, Hell March. QUICK_EDIT
I hope this mod doesn't turn out to be yet another C&C1 clone but with Renegade graphics! It should be more original than that. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Alot of new features are going to be added in, as well as many new missions. Officers, GDI Powersuits, the Black Hand soldiers, and Stealth Troopers will all be part of this mod in one way or another.
New terrain, like actual pavement, gates, etc. will be added as well. I will make a full new features list once I have thoroughly pinned down what I want to do with the mod. Rest assured, this won't be a port with Renegade graphics. _________________ You come for the modding but you stay for the Crap Forum. Last edited by Regulus on Sun Apr 18, 2010 12:51 am; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
The first Tiberium War lasted from 1999 to 2002. Renegade occurred during the First Tiberium War. I might consider believing you if you site your source. _________________ You come for the modding but you stay for the Crap Forum. QUICK_EDIT
The first Tiberium War lasted from 1999 to 2002. Renegade occurred during the First Tiberium War. I might consider believing you if you site your source.
1. The Renegade manual. Do you have the game? If so, look inside. It's somewhere in there, where the game talks about the story. There's a letter to, I think, Havoc, from General Shepard...
2. There's this topic here:
http://www.petroglyphgames.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4953
That might contain the answer to the question...If not, google it on their forums, I guess. I know it's there, though. The Renegade manual states that the game takes place in 2020, and on Petro's forums, Adam mentionned that Renegade takes place between TD and TS, so TD and Ren aren't taking place at the same time. QUICK_EDIT
I don't have the manual anymore, but it doesn't make any sense for them to take place at different time periods. I have heard some talk that the First Tiberium War's date was retconned to something like 2011 or something like that, but I think that was EA's doing, not Westwood's.
The reason why it doesn't make sense for them to be two different events is because Kane went into hiding (presumed dead by GDI) after the siege on the Sarajevo temple during the first Tiberium War and wasn't seen again until the events of Tiberian Sun. If Renegade took place AFTER Tiberian Dawn, why is it that Kane is still around like nothing happened? If he disappeared during the events of Renegade, when did it happen? Kane isn't killed in Renegade. And if Kane was in hiding during Renegade, why didn't Havoc mention anything about it? Surely he would have known about the attack at Sarajevo and reported the presence of Kane. It simply doesn't make canonical sense to state that Renegade and Tiberian Dawn don't overlap one another. _________________ You come for the modding but you stay for the Crap Forum. QUICK_EDIT
I don't have the manual anymore, but it doesn't make any sense for them to take place at different time periods. I have heard some talk that the First Tiberium War's date was retconned to something like 2011 or something like that, but I think that was EA's doing, not Westwood's.
The reason why it doesn't make sense for them to be two different events is because Kane went into hiding (presumed dead by GDI) after the siege on the Sarajevo temple during the first Tiberium War and wasn't seen again until the events of Tiberian Sun. If Renegade took place AFTER Tiberian Dawn, why is it that Kane is still around like nothing happened? If he disappeared during the events of Renegade, when did it happen? Kane isn't killed in Renegade. And if Kane was in hiding during Renegade, why didn't Havoc mention anything about it? Surely he would have known about the attack at Sarajevo and reported the presence of Kane. It simply doesn't make canonical sense to state that Renegade and Tiberian Dawn don't overlap one another.
True, that takes place simultaneously as the Tiberian Dawn siege of Sarajevo. QUICK_EDIT
The first Tiberium War lasted from 1999 to 2002. Renegade occurred during the First Tiberium War. I might consider believing you if you site your source.
1. The Renegade manual. Do you have the game? If so, look inside. It's somewhere in there, where the game talks about the story. There's a letter to, I think, Havoc, from General Shepard...
2. There's this topic here:
http://www.petroglyphgames.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4953
That might contain the answer to the question...If not, google it on their forums, I guess. I know it's there, though. The Renegade manual states that the game takes place in 2020
That's a typo...
And cite the source so that we know the exact words he used, because I don't take much for your credibility in these issues. QUICK_EDIT
I cannot find the reference to 1999 right now, which pisses me off but I know it exists, but I'm digging.
Anyway, another argument until I can back that one.
Tiberian Sun takes place in 2030 and it claims that it occurs 30 years after the events of Tiberian Dawn. How could Renegade take place in 2020 if the first war ended 30 years prior?
Two sources confirm these two points. The first point (the date of events in TS) is mentioned in the GDI intro video: Return of Kane
and the second one is an article about the general style and such of TS, which is an interview with one of the developers. It is on the second page that confirms that the events take place 30 years after Tiberian Dawn, placing the end of the war at the year 2000. _________________ You come for the modding but you stay for the Crap Forum. QUICK_EDIT
There's also the fact that renegade's second mission was originally intended to be TD's first/second GDI missions and renegade's final missions coincide with the last GDI mission in TD, where you besiege the Temple of Nod. _________________ Dawn of the Tiberium Age staff member QUICK_EDIT
Who gives a flying ztype? Unless this mod has a campaign it doesn't matter. Just make a good Renegade based mod thats fun. This isn't a canon thread anyway. Please. _________________ Victory! QUICK_EDIT
Well I'm not gonna defend Renegade as I think the story sucks but it does say 2020 in the manual regardless. I dunno, Westwood never knew what they were doing especially when it came to manuals. QUICK_EDIT
The first Tiberium War lasted from 1999 to 2002. Renegade occurred during the First Tiberium War. I might consider believing you if you site your source.
1. The Renegade manual. Do you have the game? If so, look inside. It's somewhere in there, where the game talks about the story. There's a letter to, I think, Havoc, from General Shepard...
2. There's this topic here:
http://www.petroglyphgames.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4953
That might contain the answer to the question...If not, google it on their forums, I guess. I know it's there, though. The Renegade manual states that the game takes place in 2020
That's a typo...
And cite the source so that we know the exact words he used, because I don't take much for your credibility in these issues.
It's NOT a typo. Adam Isgreen made a post stating it DOES take place in 2020. (or between TD and TS) I just can't find it right now. Trust me, it's there.
And the manual states Nod grew through funds for Tib research "throughout the end of the 20th century - and into the 21st". Obviously it would take at least a decade into the century to state something like that. So yes, it most likely does take place in 2020, not 2002. TD started in 95 and ended in something like 99.
Shepard isn't even Brigadier General anymore, it's Adam Locke here.
The manual also has a letter from Locke to Havoc and from GDI High Command to him, too.
As for Kane, he went into hiding, but it's reasonable to think WW could've messed with the lore a bit. EA has, and if what you state were right anyways, there would be tons of retcons, so there's no way out without contradicting SOMETHING from TD.
I think despite Kane being in hiding, it doesn't show Kane necessarily alive, all we see are holograms and a video near the end of the game. They (GDI) know so little about him and heard accounts of him being at certain places even after his death (I recall this being stated somewhere...EVA database has this info I think on their page on Kane). Kane could still be dead and people using his image to rally the brotherhood. And it's also possible GDI knows Kane is alive but don't want to openly tell the world population to avoid looking bad in front of the public. (The entire war would be for nothing as Kane isn't even dead...Can you imagine how many would turn to Nod?) Looking at Solomon's reaction in TS when Kane shows up, it seems he knows already Kane is alive and he doesn't fear him. He doesn't seem that surprised when Kane shows up on his screen and talks to him. And let's face it, they know (it's in TS' manual) that transmissions with Kane employ some kind of image modification techniques. So it's plausible to say that someone might be using Kane's identity to control Nod. And who's to say they believed what Havoc saw in the Temple of Nod and other Nod structures like the holograms? Look at Mass Effect, the citadel leadership doesn't even believe the Reapers are coming. Same could apply here. (And look at GDI in TW, and how Redmond Boyle refuses to really talk about the innocent lives lost on the Temple Prime attack due to his ordering of the reckless use of the Ion Cannon)
+ CABAL in 2020 nearly complete rather than in 2002 sounds MUCH more reasonable than 2002 or even 1999.
Oh, and GDI was fighting Nod well after the 1st Tib war, just as they are still fighting Nod after TS (in FS. It's not even a real "war", as it barely lasts 3 to 6 months. The event is referred to as a "firestorm", too, in EA's TW.) and between FS and TW, and between TW and TT. Doesn't mean it's a war, just that there are events in which battles or insurgencies are taking place. This was not a full-scale war, rather just an operation to recover Mobius' team and which turned into an operation to find and stop Nod's Tiberium research. They never really allocate large forces to fight each other. You only ever see 2-3 vehicles at once and most of the missions GDI sends a Commando, a vehicle and a small squad of GDI infantry. That's not a war, it's a small-scale operation.
So, I think this is settled.
EDIT again: Thought it doesn't mean you can't play with the storyline and mix the two together...Just don't state that they both take place at the same time, because they really don't. QUICK_EDIT
Renegade and TD existing together doesn't make sense. In TD The Temple of Nod is located in Sarajevo, in Renegade it's located in Egypt or neighboring country.
1995 - The war started and ended
2020 - The war started and ended (again?!)
However I don't remember where I got the information that TD started in 1995... All I know for certain is that Renegade and TD differs a lot from each other both in story and unit design. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
First, Brigadier General Adam Locke mentions that he he needs to contact General Shepard for reinforcements. Adam Locke is NOT the commander of all GDI forces in Renegade.
Secondly, the idea of multiple temples isn't hard to imagine. A temple in Egypt, a temple in Sarajevo. Kane was never confirmed to be in the temple at Cairo, so the operation to destroy the Sarajevo temple can still happen, and Kane can still be blasted by the Ion cannon during the mission at Sarajevo. We know that conflict occurred in both Africa and Europe, so its still a valid theory, and nothing states that there can only be one in regards to temples.
Thirdly, Adam states "Renegade was set between C&C TD and C&C TS." Lets be ambiguous to the nth degree shall we? No date is mentioned, no timeline given, nor is anything about the context in which Renegade is told.
Also, I never saw him specifically mention any dates at all in that topic.
Fourth, in regards to CABAL, the Brotherhood of Nod is an incredibly sophisticated and high tech organization, developing stealth and low diffusion laser technology during the course of the first war. The argument about tech levels is invalid.
Fifth: Renegade never states that the war ended with the events at the Cairo temple. If anything, Renegade just proves a GDI victory in Africa, nothing more.
Sixth, the ideas that were presented in Renegade not being in Tiberian Dawn is also a point that is somewhat weak. So we didn't see mutants in Tiberian Dawn? Tiberian Dawn was developed in 1995 for the DOS, they could have been limited to what they could have included in the original game data. The game does mention that they are experimenting on civilians, "injecting the stuff into human guinea pigs." Isn't that how Project Re-genesis worked?
Lastly: The unit design was an upper level art management decision done when EA took over Westwood. It doesn't confirm or deny anything about the franchise and its context in relation to Tiberian Dawn. All this really boils down to is a matter of taste in design.
End Point: It is not impossible for Renegade and Tiberian Dawn to not overlap one another. In fact, it is very likely that they do. _________________ You come for the modding but you stay for the Crap Forum. QUICK_EDIT
First, Brigadier General Adam Locke mentions that he he needs to contact General Shepard for reinforcements. Adam Locke is NOT the commander of all GDI forces in Renegade.
Shepard could easily still be alive in 2020, so I don't really get your point there.
Regulus wrote:
Thirdly, Adam states "Renegade was set between C&C TD and C&C TS." Lets be ambiguous to the nth degree shall we? No date is mentioned, no timeline given, nor is anything about the context in which Renegade is told.
Well it does say so in the manual, I don't know if what ex-devs are saying really matters now.
Regulus wrote:
Fourth, in regards to CABAL, the Brotherhood of Nod is an incredibly sophisticated and high tech organization, developing stealth and low diffusion laser technology during the course of the first war. The argument about tech levels is invalid.
Not sure but does it say in TS maybe that CABAL was developed at the end of TD? I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere at least.
Regulus wrote:
Fifth: Renegade never states that the war ended with the events at the Cairo temple. If anything, Renegade just proves a GDI victory in Africa, nothing more.
Yet a GDI victory in Africa is never acheived in TD. The TD GDI and Nod campaigns can run parallel, as they are in different continents.
Regulus wrote:
Sixth, the ideas that were presented in Renegade not being in Tiberian Dawn is also a point that is somewhat weak. So we didn't see mutants in Tiberian Dawn? Tiberian Dawn was developed in 1995 for the DOS, they could have been limited to what they could have included in the original game data. The game does mention that they are experimenting on civilians, "injecting the stuff into human guinea pigs." Isn't that how Project Re-genesis worked?
Well I think it's a good point. It obviously means Renegade happens after TD, not during.
Regulus wrote:
It doesn't confirm or deny anything about the franchise and its context in relation to Tiberian Dawn. All this really boils down to is a matter of taste in design.
Eh? I think it kind of does. If they wanted it too look more like TD, they could've. I think Renegade moreorless HAS to occur later than TD, otherwise it simply doesnt make sense however 2020 is perhaps pushing it considering there arn't many tech advancements.
In the end Westwood had absolutely no idea what they were doing, so it's up to you what you do with it. Renegade was clearly just some spin off, the same as RA2 (which doesnt make much sense as a sequel to RA1 either). QUICK_EDIT
Who gives a flying ztype? Unless this mod has a campaign it doesn't matter. Just make a good Renegade based mod thats fun. This isn't a canon thread anyway. Please.
Shepard could easily still be alive in 2020, so I don't really get your point there.
Not arguing dates in this instance, just command positions. Alex06 stated the Shepard was not the leader of GDI forces, when Renegade doesn't state that Locke is.
OmegaBolt wrote:
Well it does say so in the manual, I don't know if what ex-devs are saying really matters now.
True, EA might have changed the dates when Renegade was developed, hence, the manual date and the graphic design change.
OmegaBolt wrote:
Yet a GDI victory in Africa is never acheived in TD. The TD GDI and Nod campaigns can run parallel, as they are in different continents.
The idea is that the GDI victory in TD is canon, and the Nod campaign isn't. As we play GDI, we don't actually know what happened in Africa. I think that the idea is that without the illustrious commander (IE you, the player) controlling the outcomes in Africa, GDI has a better outcome in Africa than the outcome presented in the Nod Campaign. The two capmaigns are not parallel occurrences like they are in Firestorm. Without the events of the player, GDI may have very well won in Africa, and like I said, Renegade never states that, but I think it does hint it.
OmegaBolt wrote:
Well I think it's a good point. It obviously means Renegade happens after TD, not during.
No it does not. It can easily be happening during the events of Tiberian Dawn. Tiberian Dawn's lack of dates is troubling and is the heart of all these issues. Without context of time it is easy to make the assumption that the campaigns took months instead of years. No data from the games or manuals state how long the First Tiberium War actually lasts, and I am not throwing EA's stupid amendments to the lore into the equation.
OmegaBolt wrote:
Eh? I think it kind of does. If they wanted it too look more like TD, they could've. I think Renegade moreorless HAS to occur later than TD, otherwise it simply doesnt make sense however 2020 is perhaps pushing it considering there arn't many tech advancements.
Again, the original designs of units in Renegade were going to based on TD designs, and then the lead art director changed it. It was a pure management decision.
OmegaBolt wrote:
In the end Westwood had absolutely no idea what they were doing, so it's up to you what you do with it. Renegade was clearly just some spin off, the same as RA2 (which doesnt make much sense as a sequel to RA1 either).
True, but I always felt that Renegade took place in a very small segment of the actual Tiberian War, and again, without the context of time, it is hard to place where it goes.
@ Aro/Volgin
This mod will be having a non-parallel GDI and Nod campaign, with the idea that the GDI victory is the "canon" victory. Even though I'm not trying to expand the original story line, I'm keeping the formula of the original Tiberian Dawn campaign. _________________ You come for the modding but you stay for the Crap Forum. QUICK_EDIT
Renegade and TD existing together doesn't make sense. In TD The Temple of Nod is located in Sarajevo, in Renegade it's located in Egypt or neighboring country.
Actually, I assumed that at first aswell, but then I read some of the devs answers and they implied that it was the same scenario as the one played out in the last GDI mission in TD with a few retcons.
FWIW, in reality, there are actually subtle pyramid like constructions in temperate Sarajevo. QUICK_EDIT
I awlays thoguht the two coincided, seeing as how you play the first gdi mission. You also destroy a bunch of Kane's most valuable stuff (mutant, cybernetic research, his temple) which could possible set him back i don't know....thirty years? The way I see it, they couldn't decide what to do with it, and the result was the random game that Renegade is today. _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
Renegade would be set during 2002 (began around 1995 and went onward) at most because common sense tells us that the technology in Renegade wouldn't accelerate that much in only 10 years! I believe it's simultaneous, Havoc would have reported about seeing Kane in a hologram, and then it wouldn't have been such a surprise for General Solomon either. That would be VERY important information that he ought to know as soon as possible one would think. QUICK_EDIT
+10 this thread is getting more exciting as it drags on. C&C 1 has no dates in it. Do we need to continue arguing this? _________________ Victory! QUICK_EDIT
True. Tiberian Dawn does not include any dates in game during the events of the war. The only dates we have for sure are the dates of the documents included in the manual, (1995) and the dates given to us by the dev's and the date in Tiberian Sun. If the 2nd war started in 2030, and the war takes place 30 years after the events of the First Tiberium War, then it is only logical that the events take place in and around 1995 to 2000. My mod takes place in the later stages of that assumed time period of 1995 to 2000, roughly 1999-2000 if these dates are absolute. _________________ You come for the modding but you stay for the Crap Forum. QUICK_EDIT
No idea, it might have, it might not have. I haven't seen any dates in the cut-scenes. Were there dates on the install screens for Tiberian Sun? _________________ You come for the modding but you stay for the Crap Forum. QUICK_EDIT
Mostly, everything is concepts and such right now. I have been busy with...other things. _________________ You come for the modding but you stay for the Crap Forum. QUICK_EDIT
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Welcome to Tiberian Dawn: Renegade
